Game of Thrones Season 5 spoiler chat

[prophet]

Spoilers - obviously.

Spoiler:

I've just watched episode three and loved it. Really intrigued as to how they'll progress Arya's story on screen, the scenes between Cersei and Margeary are beautifully acted, Sansa's new direction with the Bolton's is intriguing and Jon Snow is Jon Snow and I love him, fuck you guys. Oh and Tyrion is with Jorah and that's grand.

There's obviously a lot of stuff they've had to cut from the books but I'm finding myself enjoying watching some of the stuff they've had to adapt because it's keeping me guessing. How do you guys feel about that? Enjoy the episode? I think I enjoyed this episode more than last week's because there was no Dany this week therefore nothing to outright bore me.

Also feel free to shoot this down and laugh me off the forum but I actually think this season is going to end with Lady Stoneheart's appearance. I felt like last season's finale was the perfect time to introduce her and when it didn't happen I'd given up all hope for logical, real life reasons more than story reasons but after the first few episodes I'm starting to think it might happen. They're devoting a fair amount of time to Brienne and Pod and I believe they're going to keep doing so...having them spend the season tracking Sansa...only to be stopped when they run into...

Thoughts on the season so far?

@Hanley! @Everlong @SortaCreative @Locke @HFX Anyone?

[SortaCreative]

I'm interested to see where the Sansa story line goes.

It seems to be similar to the Winterfell plotline with Jeyne Poole being Fake Arya. It's interesting because the addition of a very real Sansa makes that plotline have some real teeth. We didn't really care that Fake Arya was being tortured. But Sansa... i'm afraid. Sansa is progressing into a wonderful character. Her look to Roose Bolton before putting on the smile and playing the game was wonderful. The maid telling her the north remembers gave me chills.

THE FUCKING NORTH REMEMBERS.

I'm also interested in seeing Dany's storyline this season. They kind of got most of her storyline into that small execution scene. The tension between the two factions and her struggle to rule fairly or be the Targ she is was all shown right there. With the decision to take out Quentyn Martell (i agree...), i'm interested to see what they do with Selmy. I enjoyed his little input to Dany.

The people i'm kind of missing the most is the Greyjoys. I know they didn't want to flood this season with the introductions of the High Sparrow, the Martells of Dorne and the Greyoy plotline. Hopefully that's the main arch in the next season. I need to see the Crows Eye.

So far so good. I like the High Sparrow. I thought the scene in the brothel was hilarious.

[prophet]

I don't see how they could cut out Euron and Victarion tbh, hopefully next season introduces them.

[SlightlyJames]

Euron seems like he's going to be a really big player in what's to come with Dragonbinder and all that, Victarion and co. seem to be the wild card of the battle of Meereen. It's irritating that they're just been swept under the rug for the time being. There's still a Kingsmoot and stuff to go down and there's really not much time left for it to matter at the pace the show is going.

Some of the changes the show has made are interesting ones, Sansa replacing Fake Arya is a pretty cool concept though again it makes the whole thing with Harry the Heir perhaps not work. Gendry replacing Edric in nearly getting burned achieves the same goal with a more familiar face, it's a shame he's not hanging out with the brotherhood anymore though. Jaime hanging out in Dorne instead of Aerys Oakheart I can see the logic behind but again it makes me feel like the whole Lady Stoneheart thing is going nowhere when the show just discards it.

I've seen no sign of Aegon so far either and by this point you'd expect we would have. I've seen some people theorize that he has been dropped to make Dany seem like more of the de facto rightful winner of this whole thing without it becoming confused which is rather irritating, I've come to dislike her quite a bit.

And if Aegon isn't happening and Quentyn isn't happening then what is even the bloody point of Dorne? All of Doran's cool scheming is down the pan without those guys and all it leaves is the boring parts.

The show has been alright since it's been back and I know I'm being overly negative, I'm just confused.

[Hanley!]

I'm liking the season a lot so far. Some people seem not that into it online, and I don't really know why. Maybe a case of building it up too much in their own heads over the break? Also, Game of Thrones sometimes takes a few episodes to get into all the crazy violence and intrigue, but these first episodes have been laying the foundation nicely, and I've found it all pretty fun to watch.

As always, Daenerys is the weak point. She's a shit character, played by a shit actress, and her story never interacts with any of the others which makes her seem unimportant, despite the huge amount of screen time she gets. However, I think things are getting a little better in her story. The dragons turning on her kinda makes you feel for her a little, and her not being capable of ruling the city effectively always seemed likely so it's cool that the story is dealing with that. And if characters like Tyrion and Varys do start to interact with her in this season, then it'll help her stuff tremendously.

Though what was the deal with her getting so pissed about one of her allies executing a murderer without trial, that she executed said ally ... also without trial? Hypocrite.

Jon Snow is usually the other weak point for me: my rule with this show has always been that the further you get from King's Landing, the worse the show gets. But this is the part of the story where Snow starts to become a bit of a badass in the books, and that's happening in the show too. I still don't care for the actor and his pouty face, but he's involved in good stuff this season. His stuff with Mance was just brilliant. You could tell there was a mutual respect there and both characters understood where the other was coming from. Snow shooting Mance when he was being burned alive before he allowed himself to scream was a great moment. It was one of the first times in the show it felt like he made a decision that was actually his, and for all the right reasons.

And then in episode 3, when he cut that fucker's head off, I was marking out. He was acting like a real leader, and like Ned fucking Stark's son into the bargain. I liked that scene a lot. I liked Samwell talking smack to that guy prior to the vote too. Everything at the wall has been so much better this season, though I think a lot of that is because Stannis the Mannis and the Red Lady are down there, so the Wall no longer feels isolated from the rest of the plot.

The Kings Landing stuff is just great as always, and one of the things the show does best in comparison to the books is the Tyrells. Lady Olenna/The Queen of Thorns is awesome in the book without a doubt, but the rest of the family is just kind of there. Margaery is brilliant in the show, and I'm enjoying the little feud between her and Cersei, who is always one of the best and most fascinating figures in Game of Thrones, despite being so loathsome.

I'm loving that Fake Arya is gone and they're using Sansa instead. That decision just makes sense to me. Though given it wasn't Martin's initial plan, I just hope there's a way for this to all make sense in the end. In my mind, Littlefinger is the smartest (and most scheming) player in this entire universe, so for him to just give up Sansa like that seems like a strange move on his part. He really has to have some really good reason for it, and I hope it makes sense in the end.

I want to see more Dorne soon. I love the Dorne stuff in the books. A lot of people don't care for it, but I think Prince Doran is a great character. I'm loving that he's being played by Bashir from Deep Space 9. Game of Thrones consistently attracts some of the best television actors.

I think you're deluding yourself about Lady Stoneheart, Nick. They've already changed their plans for both Jaime and Brienne. If they were going to bring her in now it would be to do something completely different and that just doesn't seem likely to me.

Now they just have to bring in Victarion and I'll be a happy bunny. Victarion is a boss.

One other minor complaint I have is that I don't like the idea of where Arya's story is going. The idea of her becoming "no one" is frustrating, because we want this character to remember who she is and to hold those grudges that have come to define her. We'd love to see her kill some of those names on her list, but now it seems that to become that kind of assassin, she has to give up the grudges completely, along with her personality and identity. The idea doesn't appeal to me, and I just hope they're going somewhere good with it because Arya was one of my favourites starting out.

[SlightlyJames]

One other minor complaint I have is that I don't like the idea of where Arya's story is going. The idea of her becoming "no one" is frustrating, because we want this character to remember who she is and to hold those grudges that have come to define her. We'd love to see her kill some of those names on her list, but now it seems that to become that kind of assassin, she has to give up the grudges completely, along with her personality and identity. The idea doesn't appeal to me, and I just hope they're going somewhere good with it because Arya was one of my favourites starting out.

@Hanley!

I actually find this a fantastic fit for Arya. Identity is one of the biggest themes attached to her character and throughout the entire series she spends a lot of time pondering what her identity is at any one time. Up until her arrival at the House of Black and White she had been Arry, Weasel, Nymeria and Salty and really seemed absorbed into those roles.

Now that she's at the House of Black and White the whole concept of becoming "no-one" is interesting to me as it always seems that in the process of becoming no-one she's just continuing to adapt her identity to her circumstances as she becomes Cat of the Canals, Blind Beth and Mercy.

I don't think that her becoming a Faceless Man is the death of her need for vengeance, she hasn't just hopped on a boat to go and be irrelevant at Braavos forever. She's a wild card and I'm sure we'll see her back in Westeros before long.

[Hanley!]

Arya's character progression just frustrates me. She's such a strong character, but she's been fighting since book 2/season 2 to get back into the mix, and every time you think she's found a way out, she's captured by somebody new. And now that she finally has her freedom, she seems to be using it to press the reset button and become a brand new character.

Maybe that won't happen. I'm really hoping that it doesn't. Arya is one of those few characters that I can really sympathise with, and while I like that she's a little badass, I don't want her to suddenly become super-badass at the expense of her giving up all that personality, and forgetting about all the hard things that she's gone through.

I guess part of it is that she's a kid. I'd rather see good things happen to her, than see her grow so accustomed to the bad things that she stops being afraid of them.

You're right in that it's interesting that her identity has been a constant theme for her character, but she's one of the few characters that I still feel connected to on a visceral level; that's not worth sacrificing to better establish a theme. Besides, I prefer Game of Thrones when it's character driven.

[SortaCreative]

I agree with Hanley on a few points. First off, Arya. Yeah, in the book I was a little dismayed that when she was finally free, her first choice was to leave Westeros. It's a sad choice on her part, I guess. Arya feeling like the world as just gone to hell in a hand basket and getting away from it might be best for her is sad. I can't help but have the feeling that I want her to hurry up and either become a faceless man or not and just get on with the rest of her story because it's somewhat infuriating. I want her to kill the people she wants to kill and find some sort of revenge. I want her to almost become a darker character and be consumed by vengeance because that's all the world has taught her. She's seen shit with Sandor and the Brotherhood. Her family was butchered in the Twins. She was right fucking there and Walder Frey fucked them.

The characters I really get invested in are the Starks. I know there isn't a traditional protagonist but the Starks fit that role for me. I enjoy alot of the others, Doran, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Victarion, Theon but the fucking Starks. Even though Brans chapters and scenes can be slow and really remove you from the story, I just want to finally get to the point where he's a fucking God and can see everything and .... I just want the Starks to succeed, beyond all reasonable hope. Because this story has set up an expectation that they wont.

I was annoyed in the books when Jon Snow refused Stannis' offer of making him Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. Robb Stark had named him his heir and all he needed to do was say yes. I understood him, as a person, and why he refused but... god I wanted him to say yes and rally the North around him. It's silly, me being in the North of England just makes me naturally predisposed to like them.

So when Sansa entered Winterfell and the Winterfell theme played when she was looking over the North at Moat Caitlin, I just felt something. I truly felt like the show had made a change I was one hundred percent behind because I didn't give a shit about fake Arya. I do care about sexy Sansa (I didn't really care for silly Sansa). Sansa now is becoming more of a player. Her re-entering Winterfell was a big thing for me because I was so convinced none of them would ever set foot in Winterfell again. She's in a position of real peril, political intrigue and tremendous gain. Stannis being sat at Dragonstone was boring for me, so when he showed up at the Wall in the book and show I was immediately drawn in. I'm so happy he's headed for Winterfell.

Just a quick point about Jon Snow beheading that slimeball rat faced fucknugget Janos Slynt. First, fuck you Janos. That's what you get for turning on Ned Stark. You bald bastard. THE NORTH REMEMBERS. Second, I loved how the music called back to Robb Stark (KING IN THE NORTH) and when Jon did the deed he reacted in a similar way to Robb Stark (KING IN THE NORTH) did. I also loved the way he carried himself before the deed. The shot when he's in the shieldhall alone and the way he held Longclaw like Lord Stark held Ice. I loved it.

For too long the rest of the world has had their way with the Starks. Now Winter is Coming. And in winter the wolves come out to feed.

[UTK]

I'm just glad that we got the "Stannis nod" in the last episode.

[Hanley!]

The Starks have always been the characters that I've been cheering for. As far as I'm concerned, they're the heroes of the story. We've now been set up to believe that these are characters who can't succeed and can't find any kind of happiness, but I want to believe that they'll rally in the end.

While a lot of people seem to think that this just isn't the kind of story with a conventional protagonist, or where the protagonist gets to win in the end, I'm actually not so sure that's the case. I think Martin is setting up Daenerys to fill this role. She's had obstacles in her path, but she's never suffered a massive defeat and it feels obvious now that the story will end with her marching on Westeros. Possibly to burn the fuck out of some zombies.

And I have to say ... fuck that.

Daenerys sucks as this story's hero. Compare her to the Starks and she doesn't come off as very heroic. The big reason we're supposed to think she's a good person is that she freed the slaves. That's great and everything, but she freed them by buying them or conquering their cities and basically left them little option but to act as her servants regardless. It was hardly a selfless act, even if her intentions were good.

She's spent the last few seasons taking over cities she knew little about, and which she would not be able to rule effectively. She killed slavers indiscriminately, though they were just following their cities laws and many of them were probably extremely kind to their slaves (there are plenty of those stories in the real world in any case). Starks wouldn't take cities that weren't theirs. And I'm not sure Starks would kill people on a whim like that. And even if they did, they'd do the killing themselves and stand accountable.

Daenerys thinks she's entitled to Westeros because she's a Targaryen, but as viewers are we supposed to care about the royal line? It seems to me that the show proved early on that royal lines are kinda bullshit. Everyone arguing over who has the best claim when Robert dies and he was the first king of that line ... to me it suggested that the whole concept was kinda stupid and the person most suited to rule should be the ruler.

Ultimately Daenerys is a child who feels entitled to rule over the seven kingdoms. Even though she wouldn't have a clue how to do so effectively. It makes her seem like a brat to me. That's why it was so easy to support Robb Stark. He didn't want to rule the seven kingdoms. He wanted to avenge his father, protect his people and become THE KING IN THE NORTH. And he didn't give a fuck about the iron throne. That's a character I can get behind.

[SortaCreative]

I don't think Dany will end up as the white meat baby face of the story.

Her current story shows that the more she becomes the blood of the Dragon the more she can control her dragons. When he's trying to peacefully rule she loses her identity. I think Dany will become a force that needs to be dealt with before the end. In her mind conquering the Seven Kingdoms with dragon fire and ruin is all good. But I don't think Jon Snow or Jaime Lannister would like it very much. I don't think it's going to be as neat as Tyrion and Jon being revealed as the second and third dragon riders and they just join her cause.

It's going to be much more grey than that. If Dany crosses the narrow sea with an army of Ironborn reavers at her back, the Seven Kingdoms won't rally to her cause. She says herself she will take what is hers with fire and blood. Fire and blood aren't great.

Stannis Baratheon is a more sympathetic character than Dany. She could become too wild. Also she has no heir.

[SlightlyJames]

As far as who should rule I'm all for Aegon. Varys talking to Kevan about him put me on side completely.

Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.

Oh, by the way @Hanley! I'd meant to mention this as part of my Arya post yesterday but it slipped my mind. As much as I'm convinced that this no-one stuff is a somewhat natural progression of her character anyway, keep in mind that she is still warging into Nymeria in her dreams. That, if nothing else, will keep a strong connection to Arya Stark and prevent her from discarding who she is.

[prophet]

It's silly, me being in the North of England just makes me naturally predisposed to like them.

It isn't silly at all, I'm the same.

YORKSHIRE! YORKSHIRE!

I think you're deluding yourself about Lady Stoneheart, Nick. They've already changed their plans for both Jaime and Brienne. If they were going to bring her in now it would be to do something completely different and that just doesn't seem likely to me.

If I was to put money on I'd absolutely bet against it happening and it's probably the least likely thing to happen in the show. I don't know, I just had this idea immediately after the last episode that Brienne's story this season was going to be to rescue Sansa from the Bolton's/Littlefinger only to be thwarted in the finale before she can act by Stoneheart and the Brotherhood - I don't even know why either, I just felt they've focused on Brienne and Pod in each episode thus far and there has to be reason for that.

I think Aegon will be cut, ultimately. Varys has declared himself supporting Dany and I reckon having two Targs' in the show would be confusing for the average viewer.

[SlightlyJames]

I think Aegon will be cut, ultimately. Varys has declared himself supporting Dany and I reckon having two Targs' in the show would be confusing for the average viewer.

Yeah, I get the reasoning for why they'd do it I just think it's a really bad idea. Aegon is in my view the perfect ruler and Dany is an idiot.

[prophet]

I think Aegon will be cut, ultimately. Varys has declared himself supporting Dany and I reckon having two Targs' in the show would be confusing for the average viewer.

Yeah, I get the reasoning for why they'd do it I just think it's a really bad idea. Aegon is in my view the perfect ruler and Dany is an idiot.

I don't think either of them will rule in the end. Not sure what I think will happen with Aegon (maybe he'll just be revealed as a fake) but I buy into the 3 heads of the dragon theory with Dany, Jon and Tyrion.

[Everlong]

@Hanley!

I'm actually more likely to believe that the story is setting up for Dany to follow in the footsteps of the Mad King. While she could wind up saving Westeros from the Others, I think it winds up setting itself up so that someone takes her out to save Westeros from her.

I still think Jon Snow sits the iron throne by the end of the series.

Also, Snow's stuff with Stannis was great this season. Love it.

[prophet]

Ahhhhhhfubjbsjdbfjd so many things to discuss after watching the latest episode!

But it's past midnight and I'm tired so it'll have to wait damn you GMT!

[SlightlyJames]

I might need to rewatch the season so far, haven't seen it since the leak. All I remember is Barristan, what the fuck were they thinking?

[UTK]

@Hanley!

I'm actually more likely to believe that the story is setting up for Dany to follow in the footsteps of the Mad King. While she could wind up saving Westeros from the Others, I think it winds up setting itself up so that someone takes her out to save Westeros from her.

I still think Jon Snow sits the iron throne by the end of the series.

Also, Snow's stuff with Stannis was great this season. Love it.

I don't know. Out of all the characters, Jon seems the one most likely to stay out of any wars and stay north to fight the white walkers, even if he does find out about R+L=J (which I've accepted as fact at this point.)

I want Stannis to sit the throne so bad.

[SlightlyJames]

Stannis is the greatest man. I'd be totally okay with him ending up on the Iron Throne though as I've said I do rather prefer Aegon.