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PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

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PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby JDD » Aug 05, '14, 12:26 pm

SUMMERSLAM 2005

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This weeks ppv, picked by @The Legend, is the 2005 edition of the annual Summerslam pay-per view. Held on August 25th, 2005 in the MCI Center in Washington DC, this even boasted a stacked card with legends Hulk Hogan and Shawn Michaels squaring off for the first time ever in the main event. Other matches included John Cena vs Chris Jericho and Randy Orton taking on The Undertaker. Enjoy the PPV guys :tim

THE CARD

United States Championship Match
Orlando Jordan(c) vs Chris Benoit

Edge(w/ Lita) vs Matt Hardy

Ladder Match
Eddie Guerrero(with Vickie Guerrero) vs Rey Mysterio

Kurt Angle vs Eugene

The Undertaker vs Randy Orton(with Bob Orton)

WWE Championship Match
John Cena(c) vs Chris Jericho

No Holds Barred Match for the World Heavyweight Championship Match
Batista(c) vs JBL

Shawn Michaels vs Hulk Hogan
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby The Legend » Aug 05, '14, 1:36 pm

Really excited to watch this one again. Although, self-admittedly there is one stinker that I probably won't give the time of day to, which is Angle vs Eugene. I'll have my thoughts up tomorrow or Thursday.
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby Hanley! » Aug 05, '14, 1:44 pm

Wow, I had forgotten what a stacked card this was. In theory it looks like a fantastic pay per view, and it did have its moments. But I think the theme here was good wrestling with a hefty side order of stupidity. :lol Michaels v Hogan, Guerrero v Mysterio and Angle v Eugene are all infamous for the wrong reasons.

Still it should be a lot of fun revisiting this one.
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby JDD » Aug 05, '14, 2:27 pm

Hanley! wrote:Wow, I had forgotten what a stacked card this was. In theory it looks like a fantastic pay per view, and it did have its moments. But I think the theme here was good wrestling with a hefty side order of stupidity. :lol Michaels v Hogan, Guerrero v Mysterio and Angle v Eugene are all infamous for the wrong reasons.

Still it should be a lot of fun revisiting this one.


While the story behind it was dumb, i remember the Guerrero/Mysterio ladder match being really good. Have to watch it again though. As for the stacked card, i think that was one good thing about the brand-split. It made the big ppvs feel alot more special since is was one ofonly 4 or 5 ppvs of the year that featured both Raw and Smackdown guys.
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby Hanley! » Aug 05, '14, 3:02 pm

Yeah, the match itself was good but the stipulation was such a dumb idea. Another example of something that would never happen in today's WWE. Why would someone put their own child on the line in a wrestling match? It was such a callous move that they might as well have had Dominick himself hanging from the ceiling. :lol
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby The Legend » Aug 06, '14, 12:44 pm

Benoit vs Orlando Jordan – Stinker of a match, but they did it in a way that really got the crowd into the match with the fan favorite getting the win. This match got a huge pop from the crowd, I can’t help, but think it would have been different if the match was today.

Hard to remember Vickie as a normal person that she was when she was in this storyline.

Edge vs Matt Hardy – This match is the start of why I picked this SummerSlam as my choice to watch. This is the first of three storylines/feuds/matches that go down as some of my favorite of all time. The way they blended reality with fiction was masterful. And this was truly the beginning of the rise of Edge as a Hall of Famer. Without SummerSlam 2005 and all that went into it Edge may have never truly gotten over to the extent he did. The match set a perfect tone as well, a great brawl with athleticism thrown in. The finish wasn’t great, but it did go to further the feud and get some more miles out of it.

Rey vs Eddie – This feud was a fantastic job in layered storytelling. Sure you can say that deciding who Dominic goes home with through a wrestling match is ridiculous and unrealistic. Deciding anything with a wrestling match is ridiculous. This story started simply with Eddie just trying to beat Rey. That turned into an obsession which gave us one of the best heel turns of all time. It’s important to remember Rey didn’t put Dominic up in the match, Eddie got custody and then tortured Rey with it. Add into it that every time Eddie and Rey got in the ring together in this feud they had a match of the year candidate and this is no different. The emotional connection they created for this feud that made me cheer and hope for Rey is a magical thing and that’s why I remember this feud fondly.

Angle vs Eugene – Didn’t watch this match again. Everything they did with Eugene was horrible and this is no different.

Orton vs Undertaker – One of the best feuds for Orton’s career. I loved pretty much everything about this feud. As far as pure wrestling goes, this was the best match of the night. Orton and Taker really have a great chemistry and they poured everything into this match.

Jericho vs Cena – This match and feud certainly gets hidden among the other feuds that were on this card. However, to me heel Jericho around this time was about as good of a foil as John Cena could have had and they had a very solid match

Batista vs JBL – This was a subpar match that they did a good job of hiding with violence and weapons, although not for very long. This was really short for World Title match standards, but I guess when you’ve got JBL and Batista in the ring you can’t expect much different.

Hogan vs HBK – The crowd made this match. Two legends going at it and trying to one up each other and the audience pretty much eating it up. I’m not much of a fan for the overdone theatrics that HBK in particular put on display that oversell and make it look too phony, but whatever. There was better wrestling on the show than the main event, but the main event definitely did what it was supposed to do as well.




3 Things I like:

1 – Going for moves that make it feel special. Matt diving through the ropes, Eddie powerbombing Rey while he falls from the ceiling. These types of moves give PPV’s a big fight feel that make them more special than RAW or SD. That’s what I want to see more of on PPV right now. In general the big fight feel that was driven all the way through the main event, was a theme that really said this is one of the biggest nights of the year and you need to be paying attention.

2 – Commentary. The commentary built upon that. They sold everything very well. They just totally outshine the way that it is done currently. I also liked having Tazz change out of heel role and cheer for Rey against Eddie. It really went to show how despicable Eddie was and sold the angle so well that even the heel commentator couldn’t cheer for him. Finally, the split teams kept things fresher. We weren’t listening to the same 2-3 voices all night and that made everyone better. I kind of want them to go back to this.

3 – Builds for every match. The storytelling was fantastic. You knew exactly why each and every one of these matches was happening and there was a story that really made you invest in why you should cheer for one guy and hate the other. I love that about wrestling it’s supposed to be good guys vs bad guys.

3 Things I didn’t like:

1 – Too many bad finishes. The Benoit/Jordan and Edge/Hardy matches highlighted how the wrestling at PPV’s wasn’t always better during this era. The thing they do a lot better these days (although some times they don’t do it enough) is minimizing the throw away match. The WWE back at the tail of the pre-PG era was overly produced and created too many poor finishes.

2 – Really piss-poor character: Eugene, Lita. They really took the Lita character too far in making her out to be a completely horrible person for falling in love with Edge. This was the beginning of that. There was nothing redeemable about how they used Eugene and the concept of the character from the get go. I’m glad that it’s been a while since we’ve had a truly personally insulting character brought to the audience.

3 – Minimized importance of titles. Only three title matches at one of the big 4 PPV’s? That was really bad. Add into it that all three title matches were pretty much filler and throw aways to get to the four biggest matches of the night and it’s really sad.
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby Hanley! » Aug 09, '14, 8:41 am

So I watched this pay per view over the course of the week. I'm just getting around to putting up my comments now. This was another fun show, although I have to say that I don't think it's as good as it seems on paper.

Beginning of Show

I thought the introduction to Summerslam was pretty weak. First of all, we started out with America the Spangled Banner or whatever, just to alienate the international fans right from the start. This stuff always kinda bugs me, but I guess I'm not the target audience anyway. The hype video was really bad for the show too though, which is unusual as this is one of the things WWE has always been so good at. I like the song by Seether, but the video didn't really go with it at all and the wrestler quotes that we heard over the music sounded cheesy and completely out of sync with the music. It was a bit of a sloppy job.

WWE United States Championship Match
Chris Benoit vs Orlando Jordan


This match was a waste of time. Not much time on pay per view, obviously. It didn't last very long on the pay per view at all. But time was spent on the weekly shows building up this match. So brushing it aside this quickly wasn't a good decision in my mind. If they didn't have enough faith in Jordan to let him participate in a pay per view match, they shouldn't have booked him in one. It would have freed up Benoit for something more worthwhile too. Honestly, I reckon they just made a decision close to the show that they'd rather use that time for one of the other matches. Still, I don't like to see stuff like this on pay per view.

Edge vs Matt Hardy

People were definitely pumped to watch this confrontation and there was a great buzz about it, but the match itself ended up being a little underwhelming. They didn't quite have the chemistry you might have hoped for in their first confrontation. And the match was quite short and ended abruptly. The decision to have Edge win, and therefore postpone Matt Hardy's revenge was a good one, I thought. It made sense for the story, and it's something they'd never do today - where the babyface always wins the first and last match of the feud. The match itself left me a little cold though, and I remember fans being a bit underwhelmed after watching it. But the rematch they had inside the cage was pretty great, if I recall correctly.

WWE Father of the Year Match
Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero


I was actually surprised by how little I liked this match. I remembered the stipulation being stupid, but the match itself being very good. Which is what you'd expect from two guys like Eddie and Rey. But the match didn't really grab me at all. I think the problem is that the angle was so out there that they couldn't just brush it aside until the finish. It was constantly woven in through the match. The commentators constantly referred to the stipulation, they kept showing shots of the kid, there were silly spots written in specifically around the families of both men. And as a result there wasn't that much action either and what action they did have was quite broken up. A ladder match between these two guys should have been much better. But the story severely limited them here.

Kurt Angle vs Eugene

Here's an unpopular opinion - I probably enjoyed this one as much as the ladder match. Not quite as much but it's close. Much like with the ladder match, the story was stupid (and Eugene was just such a terrible idea for a character). But like the Mysterio vs Guerrero match there was a small amount of decent action. Watching Kurt Angle when he was on form is just fascinating. He was such a machine back in 2005. Some of those suplexes towards the end looked great. Still a stupid story though. Angle should have been above doing this on such a big pay per view.

Randy Orton vs The Undertaker

This is easily my match of the night. Undertaker was sharp in the ring and Orton was wrestling with a lot more fire back then. These two had great chemistry and a lot of nice back and forth in their matches. This was no exception. The finish was unfortunately quite goofy, but that was an unfortunate quality of a lot of Undertaker matches where he had to somehow lose to a heel opponent. But other than that I can't complain about this one. It was thoroughly entertaining to watch.

WWE Championship Match
Chris Jericho vs John Cena


This was exactly what you'd expect it to be: proficient and not much more. Jericho is able to put on a great match when he wants to, and he tried to get something out of a much greener John Cena in this match. But ultimately it ended up being completely forgettable.

WWE World Heavyweight Championship Match
Batista vs John "Bradshaw" Layfield


This was short enough and not particularly impressive, but entertaining nonetheless. Batista was being looked after back at this point. They were putting him in matches that hid his flaws as a performer - letting him just be beastly in violent brawls rather than getting lost in technical wrestling affairs. I remember watching this match back in 2005, I felt underwhelmed by it. Probably it was a bit of a let down after the series of quite good matches Triple H guided Batista to earlier that year. But watching it now, having been more thoroughly exposed to what kind of performer Batista really is, it holds up well. There are some cool spots in it and a lot of physicality from both men. It was pretty cool.

Shawn Michaels vs Hulk Hogan

I was expecting to hate this one when I watched it back. The problem with modern Hogan matches for me is that they only seem to appeal to people on a nostalgia level, because he's not actually a good wrestler. And I don't have any nostalgia for that version of Hogan: what little of him I saw as a child I wasn't impressed by. The Hogan that I grew up with was Hollywood Hogan. The red and yellow doesn't inspire any nostalgia in me.

That being said, this match ended up being really enjoyable, and that's for a few reasons. First of all the crowd response was awesome. Second of all, Michaels put on a great (if slightly ridiculous) performance. And third of all, Hogan really was good at playing to the crowd. He didn't have many other skills in the ring, but that's a good one to have. Michaels oversold the shit out of everything, and that's something I've always disliked a little about his performances, but here it was so over the top I found it kinda funny.

Overall

This was a show that didn't really live up to its promise for me. On paper it looks strong, but watching it back it ended up being a little disappointing. I found Vengeance 2003 quite a bit more entertaining. Edge vs Hardy and Mysterio vs Guerrero didn't scratch the surface of their potential. The two championship matches were both enjoyable, but forgettable. They would have been a valuable addition to a stronger show, but weren't highlights in their own right. Really it was the unique main event and the underrated Orton vs Undertaker match that made this show for me. It ended up being a good show with nothing on the card that was really boring or bad, but so much of it ended up being underwhelming compared to my expectations.

Where I agree with The Legend 100% though, is how refreshing to go back and watch one of these pay per views and see that every match had a proper build up and a story behind it. Even the 25 second US championship match had an actual build, whereas nowadays there's probably 25 minutes on each pay per view (at least) dedicated to matches that haven't been built up at all. In many cases, they won't have even been announced before the show.

Some of the stories were silly (Angle/Eugene, Mysterio/Guerrero), but at least they were trying. I'd rather see the company making an effort but missing the mark than just throw stuff out there with no real effort. And while I didn't enjoy the pay per view as much as I might have, the build up to the show back in 2005 was a lot of fun to watch. This is a pay per view that I would have been a lot more likely to buy than most of the shows today, because there was a reason to invest in all of the matches. We need more of that today.

Random Thoughts

- As I mentioned before, it was cool that they had the balls to have Edge go over Hardy in their first match. And in the Mysterio vs Guerrero feud, Rey picked up six victories in a row over Eddie and the story specifically revolved around Guerrero's fear that he couldn't beat Rey. That showed a willingness to play with the formula of a feud which made things a lot more interesting. These days lengthy grudge feuds always happen the same way: Face win, heel win, face win, the end.

- Edge went on to win the grudge feud with Matt and the heels almost never win in grudge feuds. Maybe they should more often though: that win basically pushed Edge right to the top. He won his first world championship very soon afterwards and ended up being performer of the year that year. Shaking up the formula is good sometimes. So is keeping your heels strong.

- Eugene was such a terrible character. How the fuck did they convince themselves that people would like this? I thought I remembered people liking Eugene back in the day, even though he made me uncomfortable as fuck. So I was pretty delighted to see the crowd booing him in his match with Angle. If PG means no more gimmicks like this, I hope it sticks around forever.

- Orton was on fire back in 2005. He's always been a great wrestler, but he had a lot more fire back then. He's still talented now, but has been worn down by years of bad and repetitive feuds and stop/start pushes. When you look at where he was in 2005 and how much of his career he had left, this guy should have become one of the greatest wrestlers/champions of all time. But a combination of a bad attitude, weak booking and John Cena stood in his way. A big part of the problem is that Orton works best as a heel and the company always makes their heels look like pussies and eventually the fans stop buying into them as much.

- Undertaker was a lot more entertaining back in 2005 too, even though he had the same dumb zombie gimmick. At least he was selling properly for Orton and made the match into a proper story.

- In general the good stuff Undertaker has been involved in over the last 10 years, in my mind, have been the feuds and matches he fought against good heel opponents. I find his feuds with Michaels, Triple H and Batista are vastly overrated over the far more entertaining stories he took part in against Orton and Edge.

- Even back in 2005, Jericho was pretty irritating. Although maybe that's be carrying my modern day dislike of the guy into this show. Still, I'm building a theory that the more normal his hair is, the less entertaining he is to watch.

- It was funny listening to John Cena getting booed in the title match. This was the period when the Cena hate started. It's now officially been going for 9 fucking years. Anyone who still refers to the Cena hate as a "fad" needs to reexamine the definition of the word. Hopefully after an even 10 years of listening to their biggest face getting booed by the fans, the company might actually decide to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

- JBL has never been a great wrestler, but I love the physicality he brings to a match. A lot of the time I'd rather watch a clothesline from JBL than a suplex or a flip from a more technically inclined performer. It looks brutal and is just as capable of sucking me into a match.

- Michaels should have stretched out his heel run for a lot longer. After the Hogan match he turned face again and he was boring from then until his retirement. That was the best his character had been since he made his return in 2002 and they shouldn't have thrown it away so quickly. It never again felt like the guy had personality.

- This should have been Hogan's retirement match. It was something people genuinely wanted to see, he was still able to move around a bit, and it gave him one last great main event. When he faced Orton a year or two later, nobody really gave a shit. It wasn't as big a deal. Then he had some matches in TNA, where he never really worked. TNA and Hulk Hogan never really meshed well. Maybe because Hogan was already old hat when TNA was founded. He should have been smart enough to bow out here before he became a laughing stock.



This was fun, guys. Looking forward to the next one! :tim
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby Str8Shooter » Aug 09, '14, 9:05 am

Next time pick a PPV that's actually on that wrestling site guys! :P

I'm having to troll through the 'net trying to find these matches now :lol

I'll probably have thoughts up later on what I could see.
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby Hanley! » Aug 09, '14, 9:11 am

Str8Shooter wrote:Next time pick a PPV that's actually on that wrestling site guys! :P

I'm having to troll through the 'net trying to find these matches now :lol

I'll probably have thoughts up later on what I could see.


http://sports2watch.com/Online-Media/2010/10/summerslam-2005.html

You can find the show here, although it is broken down into smaller parts.
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby JDD » Aug 10, '14, 1:36 pm

Some quick thoughts -

-Orton/Taker definatley MOTN. Not as good as ttheir Mania match, but still very good.

-Like I said earlier, the brand split and having show exclusive ppv's made shows like this feel alot bigger. Even when it fell flat, like this one felt at points, the show as a whole felt alot more important.

-Another positive of the brand split era was the different commentary teams. You wouldnt have to listen to the same team all night on the joint ppv's which i liked.

-Eddie/Rey was not as good as i remembered. Like Hanley said, the dumb storyline really held back the match from being a classic.

- The opening match was dumb. Dont know why they had it end so quickly.

- Edge/Hardy was a nice short brawl. Their cage match was so much better though.

- Jericho/Cena was Y2J's last feud of his first wwe run i believe? He did a good job putting over Cena even if the match wasnt anything special.

-Batista/JBL was sloppy, but fun to watch. As is the case with alot of hardcore matches :lol

-The main event was hillarious. Michaels overselling and the crowd made it a fun match to watch.
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Re: PubTalk's PPV of the Week #3

Postby Str8Shooter » Aug 13, '14, 11:04 am

The Matt vs Edge thing was one of the weirdest cases of real life turning into a storyline. Kudos to both guys for being professional about this whole thing too and not taking liberties. Man Hardy was more over here than he’d ever been, probably the peak of his career. What a shitty ending, made Hardy look so bad, his big chance at revenge and Edge beats him to a bloody pulp in like 5 minutes.

I’m surprised Eddie and Rey even went along with this storyline at all, especially with Rey’s real son involved too. That springboard senton looked like it almost took Eddie’s head off. The sunset flip spot was kind of botched. I feel like the dumb stipulation is keeping the crowd from getting into this. That backdrop off the ladder looked crazy dangerous. Lmao @ Dominic shaking the ladder. As dumb as this is, Eddie was fantastic here yelling at him, you can’t say they weren’t trying with this. This was a pretty good match, not the greatest ladder match ever, but damn good.

Orton and Taker both look so much younger here. Solid match here if unspectacular. Orton looks way less ripped here than he does now as well. Crowd seems surprisingly dead up to this point, only getting in to certain things. Nice double tombstone reversal. Haha Bob Orton in the face prosthetic! I legit thought it was a crazed fan for a couple minutes.

Good Lord! “Y2Cheap”, Cena was the same back then! Is it weird to say that Cena looks smaller here? And he seems to have darker hair, and more of it. Coach talks way too much for the 3rd man on the commentary team. It’s amazing to see the dueling chants going back this far, I thought that Cena was still over as a babyface at this time. Maybe it was just because he was going against a popular heel in Jericho.

Did the announcers just call this the biggest match of Hogan’s career? That’s absurd. HBK’s overselling is unprofessional yet hysterical. Coach - “Michaels might have too much energy tonight”. Lawler - “Shawn’s psychology may be a little off tonight”. Still a pretty entertaining contest as it’s cool to see HBK heeling it up again. So strange seeing blood on these old PPV’s. The crowd was still into Hogan big time in 2005, say what you will about him.
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