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Unpopular Opinions

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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby VaderBomb » Mar 09, '15, 3:35 pm

Hanley! wrote:On Flair, during his prime he always wrestled with loads of energy and passion and charisma. But I had trouble believing in his performances. I didn't like his selling much at all. I found him generally to be too over the top. He was a real pantomime wrestler. And that's not necessarily a bad thing: I definitely think that has its place. I would never say that Flair was a bad performer. But he has a reputation as the greatest wrestler ever and he'd be way down my list. I don't consider him within shouting distance of the top.

When I talk about wrestling psychology, I usually mean those little details that help you suspend your disbelief. The ability to find the reality in an over-the-top wrestling storyline. Flair's performances always stretched kayfabe too much for me. Which is why I couldn't consider him one of the best ever.


Fair enough. I agree that his pantomime style-performances within most of his matches aren't for everybody but like you said, it has it's place and I think that he's the best at it. Shawn Michaels adapted a similar approach and although his overall style is way different, the inspiration is glaring.

For me, Flair's style in the ring and on the stick actually helped me to understand how to suspend my disbelief as a more mature wresting fan. In the late 90s, after I accepted the fact that wrestling was scripted, I first started getting into the old NWA Mid-Atlantic, Florida Championship Wrestling and Georgia shit by renting old VHS bootleg tapes. I had only seen Flair's WWF work but I was very young and at the time was still under the impression that it was all real. Watching all this new material, I was in love with Flair and Dusty and they helped me to understand wrestling as a pure, cathartic art form and not just athletics mixed with theatrics. His classic "take a few steps and fall flat on his face" move and his turnbuckle flip are absolutely cartoonish but that's what I love about it. He's so confident in his character that it never bothered me one bit.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby CubsIn5 » Mar 09, '15, 5:07 pm

WWE is the best wrestling promotion because of the effort it puts into making the show a spectacle. As long as ROH and TNA keep having events that look like they were lit by college dropouts I can't even take them seriously.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby VaderBomb » Mar 10, '15, 2:34 pm

CubsIn5 wrote:WWE is the best wrestling promotion because of the effort it puts into making the show a spectacle. As long as ROH and TNA keep having events that look like they were lit by college dropouts I can't even take them seriously.


So wrestling promotions should rely on on spectacle as opposed to giving the world a landscape of artistic integrity?
Budget equals merit?

Sorry, but I can't get on board with that at all. If anything, WWE should simplify their aesthetic so that it's not so over the top and suffocating.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby CubsIn5 » Mar 10, '15, 2:52 pm

VaderBomb wrote:Sorry, but I can't get on board with that at all. If anything, WWE should simplify their aesthetic so that it's not so over the top and suffocating.


To like a super small niche market, its why they have Wiz Khalifa do a set on RAW it's what works. Also as someone who makes 40% of their work from performance art, performance art is only enhanced by production values. The same actual match in a gym with some road barriers and a wobbly ring vs at Wrestlemania with $100,000's of lighting, video and audio and it is a fundamentally different match. The production values have always made a difference to the product and why the biggest threat to WWE isn't TNA, it isn't NJPW its Lucha Underground because they have Mark Burnett.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby Hanley! » Mar 10, '15, 2:58 pm

I think it's easy to get used to WWE's set up and it can make other shows difficult to get into at first. But that doesn't make them automatically inferior: just different. It takes a while to adjust your expectations, but shows with simpler production can be equally good.

I actually don't like WWE's production these days. It's far too glossy. It gives the show a cartoony quality. It's hard to take it seriously. I wish they'd scale things back a little.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby The Legend » Mar 10, '15, 3:02 pm

Hanley! wrote:It takes a while to adjust your expectations, but shows with simpler production can be equally good.


This is something I am having trouble wrapping my head around. So you are saying that if you give other companies a chance with lower expectations than you have for WWE than those companies can be equally entertaining, but under that logic, why don't you just lower your expectations for WWE and enjoy the product more?
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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby Hanley! » Mar 10, '15, 3:31 pm

The Legend wrote:
Hanley! wrote:It takes a while to adjust your expectations, but shows with simpler production can be equally good.


This is something I am having trouble wrapping my head around. So you are saying that if you give other companies a chance with lower expectations than you have for WWE than those companies can be equally entertaining, but under that logic, why don't you just lower your expectations for WWE and enjoy the product more?


Because I didn't say anything about lowering expectations. I said you have to adjust them. If you expect wrestling to be all glossy with polished production and cameras that never stop switching and moving, then you could be surprised or disappointed when the show you're watching doesn't look the same. But once you get used to it, you might find you like it more.

More expensive production isn't always better. It's all about what it adds to the show. How it helps sell the product, or tell the story.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby SlightlyJames » Mar 10, '15, 3:39 pm

The production values that set WWE apart are superficial and excessive and unnecessary. I'd prefer if it was more subdued really.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions

Postby VaderBomb » Mar 10, '15, 5:50 pm

The Rock, Hulk Hogan, Sting and Triple H wouldn't be on my personal list of the fifty greatest wrestlers of all time.

Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, The Undertaker and Randy Savage are in my top 50 but not top 20.

A few names that would be on my list that a couple of you may not be familiar with: Billy Robinson, Bruiser Brody, Jun Akiyama, "Dr. Death" Steve Williams, Tiger Mask, Riki Choshu, Stan Hansen, Kenta Kobashi, Jumbo Tsuruta, Toshiaki Kawada, Dory Funk Jr., Jack Brisco, Mitsuharu Misawa.
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