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WWE isn't so bad regarding race

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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Circled Square » Feb 15, '15, 3:48 am

Daz wrote:
Circled Sqaure wrote:The reason why you have a smaller pool is because WRESTLING IS NOT A BLACK SPORT. It just isn't. it has no meaning to black people. Not many kids who have athletic talent dream of being a wrestler, let alone black kids. You have a smaller pool to pick from because the amount of black wrestlers is smaller compared to the majority of other races. Titus O'Neil may have been interested in wrestling, but chose football instead.


And any point you may have had in this discussion just went flying out the window.


I'm a black wrestling fan and that's what I've gathered growing up in an inner city environment. Most people find it corny, same with hockey. There's something comforting about watching people who look like you. It's not hard to wrap your head around. I'm not going to insult your post like you did mine because I'm new here and don't have that epic insider 1337 elite status you do.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby VaderBomb » Feb 15, '15, 3:51 am

Circled Sqaure wrote:The reason why you have a smaller pool is because WRESTLING IS NOT A BLACK SPORT. It just isn't. it has no meaning to black people. Not many kids who have athletic talent dream of being a wrestler, let alone black kids. You have a smaller pool to pick from because the amount of black wrestlers is smaller compared to the majority of other races. Titus O'Neil may have been interested in wrestling, but chose football instead. Sure, the indy's have been kinder, but the indies are a lot kinder to mid-card level talent. So say the majority of wrestlers are white, it means more often than not they will be the guys getting the top push. These crazy talented black wrestlers you speak of don't fit my definition of crazy talented. I grasped at straws when I listed mid-card level white talent, but there's much more.

Paul London
Brian Kendrick
Matt Hardy
Test
Jindrak
Carlito (not white but hey)

No conspiracy. Just bad timing, creative's got nothing for you and at times, bad booking. All of those three can happen to Nwankwo Deng to Sun Ming Pao. Doesn't matter.


I clearly stated that it's no conspiracy but it's the truth nonetheless. WWE is much worse at racial inequality than most world-wide promotions. I don't see how anybody can disagree. I could make a list of 100+ guys who could have been world champion in WWE, but the fact of the matter is that if you're white you have a higher chance of excelling in the WWE because history has proven that they chose to allow more white wrestlers a chance at the top spot than any other ethnicities.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Circled Square » Feb 15, '15, 3:55 am

All these buzzwords. I'm not saying anything offensive at all. You're going to argue with me that blacks don't have a lesser interest in wrestling, I'm going to tell you otherwise. If you think that whites are more likely to become top dogs (which is true because THERE IS MORE WHITES IN WRESTLING) so be it. I think it's offensive to say, "muh racism" when black talents can't make it to the top. Soon, somebody will say something like this to the media and the WWE will end up pushing a black guy into hell and having it backfire. The time will come when a guy who's great on the stick and in the ring (and also has a good image) comes along and happens to be black and have a great career. I'm all for it. It just hasn't happened because the talent hasn't been there. I'm not going to talk about the 70/80's of wrestling, I don't know enough about it.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Daz » Feb 15, '15, 4:08 am

Circled Sqaure wrote:
Daz wrote:
Circled Sqaure wrote:The reason why you have a smaller pool is because WRESTLING IS NOT A BLACK SPORT. It just isn't. it has no meaning to black people. Not many kids who have athletic talent dream of being a wrestler, let alone black kids. You have a smaller pool to pick from because the amount of black wrestlers is smaller compared to the majority of other races. Titus O'Neil may have been interested in wrestling, but chose football instead.


And any point you may have had in this discussion just went flying out the window.


I'm a black wrestling fan and that's what I've gathered growing up in an inner city environment. Most people find it corny, same with hockey. There's something comforting about watching people who look like you. It's not hard to wrap your head around. I'm not going to insult your post like you did mine because I'm new here and don't have that epic insider 1337 elite status you do.


Don't hold post count against me, if you've got a point you want to make, you go right ahead and make it. That's your right.

As it's my right, to find your generalization quite ridiculous, especially as you say now, it's based on your own individual experience. You're not representative of every black wrestling fan, or every black person globally, neither are you representative of every black community who has access to WWE programming. So you're really not able to say with any sort of authority that Wrestling is not a Black Sport. I'll go out on a limb and say the players in the NFL and the NBA are predominantly black. Does that mean Football and Basketball aren't white sports, cause white people can't find comfort in the players? Of course not. It's asinine to say so.

The fact wrestling takes place all over the world and has an abundance of different styles, to me at any rate, shows that it's a sport/form of entertainment with wide spread appeal, regardless of race or gender. The talent pool of black wrestlers isn't small by any stretch of the imagination. There's a wealth of talented black wrestles on the indies, in fact I'd say right now, 3 or 4 of the top wrestlers working on the independents (and globally_ are black. The fact the WWE hasn't produced an African-American talent that can relate to black communities at large, says more about WWE than it does about Wrestling as a whole, and only re-enforces the points I, and others, have already made in this thread. And nobody is saying a talent should have the rocket strapped to them, simply because they're black, the argument was about how talent of varying minorities is treated. They don't have to be WWE Champion to be treated respectfully.

And don't misunderstand me, I by no means believe that WWE have intentionally held down black talent because of the colour of their skin. I think the fact there hasn't been a major black star break out is indicative of larger problems with their creative system. They don't position their talent, no matter the colour of their skin, in ways in which benefit them. The difference is though, when I white mid-carder gets lost in the shuffle, he doesn't get saddled with a gimmick relating to his ethnicity. There's a reason why Mark Henry is one of the few black stars of the last decade or so to get a run in the Main Event. It's no coincidence that his gimmick has nothing to do with the colour of his skin. He could be Mark Henry, world's strangest man, whether he were white, black, Asian, Hispanic, or whatever else.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby VaderBomb » Feb 15, '15, 4:18 am

Circled Sqaure wrote:All these buzzwords. I'm not saying anything offensive at all. You're going to argue with me that blacks don't have a lesser interest in wrestling, I'm going to tell you otherwise. If you think that whites are more likely to become top dogs (which is true because THERE IS MORE WHITES IN WRESTLING) so be it. I think it's offensive to say, "muh racism" when black talents can't make it to the top. Soon, somebody will say something like this to the media and the WWE will end up pushing a black guy into hell and having it backfire. The time will come when a guy who's great on the stick and in the ring (and also has a good image) comes along and happens to be black and have a great career. I'm all for it. It just hasn't happened because the talent hasn't been there. I'm not going to talk about the 70/80's of wrestling, I don't know enough about it.


The fact that there hasn't been many supremely talented black wrestlers in WWE is utter shit. I've seen countless wrestling shows from the larger side of world and indie-promotions (from the 70s- to the 2010s) featuring black wrestlers who could easily make an impact in WWE if given the chance, but WWE deciding to hire the NFL dropouts over the truly phenomenal wrestlers doesn't lessen the gap.

The major topic of discussion as far as my inclusion in this debate is mostly to defend Japanese wrestling as it's being unfairly attacked in comparison to WWE but at this point I'm distracted by these quasi-ludicrous statements. There are a plethora of black wrestlers in the world who could be a top worker in WWE, but the fact that they are oppressed doesn't mean that they aren't good enough. I'd say the same about the Paul Londons and Brian Kendricks of the world. Nothing, at least in pro-wrestling is absolute.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Circled Square » Feb 15, '15, 4:19 am

I just made an off hand remark about me being black and now you think I'm telling you I dream of black children and white children walking hand in hand. I'm not MLK LMAO and I certainly am not a black ambassador, I thought my comment would help clear me from any racist motives somebody may think I have. My point was made, you can quote me and be like "NAH BRO YOUR POINT IS SHIT M8 IT DOESN'T MEET MY REQUIREMENTS" but my point is my point.

Is the NBA and NFL predominately black? Yes. Plenty of great white players, but they're an anamoly. Go look up a top 100 list of best NBA players of all time and tell me if you don't see what I'm getting at here. Hell, it even makes sense from a science standpoint, basketball and football have a lot of running in them and blacks excel at that. It's not a bad thing. Look at India vs. Kenya, which country is better? India. But which country has more gold medalists?

I'm not talking about some LGBTQBBQ75W indy promotion from butt-fuck nowhere, I'm talking about the WWE. The difference between being a champion in the indy's and a top guy in the WWE is so big you can't draw comparison. Every commodity is unproven until going through the gauntlet that is WWE developmental. They often make bad booking choices or don't push the right people. Human error does not equal racism.
e
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Daz » Feb 15, '15, 4:28 am

Circled Sqaure wrote:I just made an off hand remark about me being black and now you think I'm telling you I dream of black children and white children walking hand in hand. I'm not MLK LMAO and I certainly am not a black ambassador, I thought my comment would help clear me from any racist motives somebody may think I have. My point was made, you can quote me and be like "NAH BRO YOUR POINT IS SHIT M8 IT DOESN'T MEET MY REQUIREMENTS" but my point is my point.

Is the NBA and NFL predominately black? Yes. Plenty of great white players, but they're an anamoly. Go look up a top 100 list of best NBA players of all time and tell me if you don't see what I'm getting at here. Hell, it even makes sense from a science standpoint, basketball and football have a lot of running in them and blacks excel at that. It's not a bad thing. Look at India vs. Kenya, which country is better? India. But which country has more gold medalists?

I'm not talking about some LGBTQBBQ75W indy promotion from butt-fuck nowhere, I'm talking about the WWE. The difference between being a champion in the indy's and a top guy in the WWE is so big you can't draw comparison. Every commodity is unproven until going through the gauntlet that is WWE developmental. They often make bad booking choices or don't push the right people. Human error does not equal racism.
e


And again you're missing the point.

I'm not asking WWE to go back in time and make Super Crazy WWE Champion. It'd be nice if he didn't ride a lawnmower to the ring however. And the fact that there's countless examples of racially insensitive/stereotypical gimmicks, for a global company, to this day ... is ridiculous.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Circled Square » Feb 15, '15, 4:33 am

Nation Of Domination is a nice counter to that. To be fair, plenty of Mexican guys come to the WWE and can't speak English very well. It limits them. Look at Sin Cara. Eddie Gurrero drove a low rider to the ring and talked about lying, cheating, and stealing. It wasn't tacky in my opinion. Cryme Tyme was on the border of tacky, too. I see the point you're trying to make. Don't see why the WWE has to have diversity quotas all of the sudden, either. :D
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby EmperorWu » Feb 15, '15, 5:14 am

Daz wrote:I'm not asking WWE to go back in time and make Super Crazy WWE Champion.

I am, that would be awesome.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby ShaneOfan » Feb 15, '15, 8:31 am

I would like to say a few things about random points made in this thread...
-If Obama gets to be black so does the Rock.
-WWE has held many people down, black and white, but Shelton Benjamin held himself down.
-For all most people know NJPW could have Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Korean, and Laotian champs but are lumped together as Japanese. That's pretty damn diverse.
-I think it's petty to say WHC should not count. Granted it only brings in two (Booker and Henry) but to discount it to support your argument is silly.
-WWE has invited a lot of money in Hispanic champions.
-George Bush Vince McMahon hates black people.
-There is obviously an unequal distribution of people who have held the championship.
-The three guys who have held it the most Cena, HHH, and Flair look like Hitler's wet dream.
-And lastly and most importantly, Wu-Tang Clan Ain't Nuthing take Fuck With
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby flock u » Feb 15, '15, 9:10 am

Circled Sqaure wrote:
VaderBomb wrote:
Circled Sqaure wrote:Maybe it's because they weren't good enough. Don't forget The Rock is part black as well. Name one other black wrestler (hell, half black) that deserved to be a top dog and could be top tier.

protip: you can't

protip2: Mark Henry's hall of pain was the B tier show


Really?

Bobo Brazil, Booker T, Junkyard Dog, Ron Simmons, Shelton Benjamin, and D'Lo Brown all had the talent to be WWF/E Champion but were never allowed the opportunity or the time to showcase what they were capable of to their fullest capacity.

Not to mention the countless black wrestlers who were never signed despite clearly having the talent. If I were to begin that list it would be endless. Homicide could have been the top heel for years in WWE.

I'm not necessarily saying that there's a racist conspiracy but it's bullshit, nonetheless. WWE clearly caters to and abides by a majorly white audience.


Dolph Ziggler, Mr. Kennedy, Ted DiBease Jr, Chuck Palumbo (lol), Trevor Murdoch and Luke Gallows all had talent to be the WWF/E champion but were never allowed the opportunity or the time to showcase what they were capable of to their fullest capacity.

Not to mention the countless of white wrestlers who were never signed despite clearly having th-...you see where I'm going here?

The superstars have to connect with the audience. Few black wrestlers in the past fifteen years have made a connection. Booker T did, he stuck around as a mid carder/stop-gap champion. Shelton was good in the ring, crap on the mic. Cryme Tyme was a bad one IMO, that was just a little bit much, but they were entertaining and at times well written, but blacks get gimmicks that are, well, gimmicky. Kofi being Jamaican was another one. R-Truth to some extent, but they based his character around his insanity, even though he was what's upping for a few years.

Anyway, there is no conspiracy. More white people watch/watched WWE, that's your target audience. It's like kids and the influence of the PG era. My favorite memory of SD the past five years was Mark Henry's Hall Of Pain run and he connected. It's no conspiracy. His character clicked. Who gave two fucks about D'Lo Brown? I didn't. Bobo Brazil looks terrible from what I've seen. That's just my opinion though.



Just to let you know you lost the argument once you mentioned Ken Anderson and talent in the same sentence.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Str8Shooter » Feb 15, '15, 9:36 am

I don't know who this @Circled Sqaure guy is, but he definitely isn't afraid to jump right into the deep end :lol
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Hanley! » Feb 15, '15, 9:39 am

The four people he named after Kennedy are much more damning. Kennedy had real potential at one point. Those other guys never had it. :lol

I don't know exactly what point CircledSqaure is trying to make, but I don't think it's right to suggest that wrestling is a white person's sport. We've seen more than enough evidence to the contrary. There is no shortage of talented black wrestlers out there and there are major established wrestling markets in Mexico and Japan. All ethnicities can be interested in wrestling, and all ethnicities can excel at wrestling. It helps that wrestling doesn't demand one specific physical skill of its performers. It's entertainment and there are a large variety of ways to work.

You also have to realise that there is a reason non-white talent doesn't often connect with the audience. And that's because they aren't treated with respect, they're given terrible stereotype gimmicks that nobody can connect with and they're pushed far less often. It's rare (if ever) that a talent can get over 100% on his/her own. Everybody needs the company's support. Their stuff is too scripted for anyone to get really over on raw talent.

As for Mark Henry and Booker T, it is good that they won gold in the WWE. Though you don't have to look too hard to find storylines where their race was held against them in the company. Arguably Booker in particular should have done a lot more in the company than he did. But neither of them were ever the company's main champion. The WHC has rarely been presented on the level of the WWE championship and their reigns were not among those times.

The Rock does certainly count as a point in their favour when it comes to showcasing racial diversity though. I don't see why it wouldn't.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby ShaneOfan » Feb 15, '15, 9:49 am

Also any argument that no black man truly deserved to hold a top title goes out the window when David Arquette held a title. Any title. Ever.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Str8Shooter » Feb 15, '15, 9:52 am

I can see the point that he's trying to make. In that there have been black wrestlers but it's not their race that held them back from being the top guy and champion but the other factors that they were missing from the overall package that prevented them from being World Champion. Like I loved Shelton Benjamin but even I'll admit that he wasn't World title material.

I think where his argument suffers is that WWE undoubtedly has booked minority performers with less than stellar gimmicks that were questionable at best and offensive at worst. Even the success stories like Eddie Guerrero had him being a Latino male who lied, cheated, and stole and drove a low rider. The Mexicools drove a lawnmower to the ring for crying out loud. R Truth comes out rapping to the ring. Look at Asian stereotypes of guys like Hakushi, Kenzo Susuki, even Tensai when he debuted.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Everlong » Feb 15, '15, 10:13 am

Yeah I don't necessarily agree with the idea of wrestling being a "white man's sport," but I can see @Circled Sqaure's point about there having been a general lack of black wrestlers that were ready to take that step in the WWE. Kofi got close but messed up somehow, Shelton was never a main event kind of guy, etc.

My issue isn't so much with black wrestlers never getting to the main event as it is with black wrestlers tending to be stuck in characters/gimmicks based on stereotypes. And THAT isn't just a problem with black wrestlers... it's a problem with Asian/Latino wrestlers as well.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Hanley! » Feb 15, '15, 10:28 am

Kofi just bugged Orton and that was enough. He's been misused ever since. And it's no coincidence that he first started to get over when he dropped the Jamaican stuff (or at least dialed it back). Those gimmicks are a large part of why these characters don't get over. So just saying "they don't get over so they shouldn't be pushed" is taking too narrow a view.

I'd also argue that Benjamin had just as many tools to be in the main event as a lot of other guys who actually did win titles. He wasn't the complete package, but how many people are? There might have been a reason that folks were a little more open to seeing his weaknesses. Then again, maybe his momentum was just derailed when they brought in his "Momma". :facepalm
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Everlong » Feb 15, '15, 10:32 am

flock u wrote:Just to let you know you lost the argument once you mentioned Ken Anderson and talent in the same sentence.


Maaaaan Kennedy was great!
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby Messiah » Feb 15, '15, 10:37 am

Not going to get into the debate because I'm on both sides of the fence.

I will say the only black wrestler in the WWE who I felt 100% should have been WWE Champion is MVP. I really, really don't understand how they fucked him up. He had the look, the charisma, the entrance, the attire, the in-ring ability, the talking skills, the gimmick, everything. He was the complete package. Then for some reason, they have him go on a losing streak and turn him face. I mean, really? The guy was golden and the WWE screwed him over. Seeing him falter because of the WWE brass just pissed me off. I remember being really ticked he didn't win MITB at WrestleMania 24, granted CM Punk won in his place but in hindsight, MVP would have been a better choice with Punk winning the next year.



His feud with Matt Hardy, one of the best mid-card feuds ever. One of the rare times you will see a team that isn't really a team win the tag team titles and it make PERFECT sense.
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Re: WWE isn't so bad regarding race

Postby SortaCreative » Feb 15, '15, 10:41 am

^ MVP is arguably the biggest missed opportunity in recent WWE history.
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