Is New Day a real thing?

[SlightlyJames]

If it was their own idea then I'm not sure you can get upset by it.

You can get upset by anything man. What that says about you is another matter.

[DBSoT]

I am bowing out of this discussion. There is a lot of racism in WWE, but I just don't see it with this gimmick and I can see this discussion will just end badly. I just think past racism by WWE is skewing peoples view of this group and labeling it before they have had more then a few vignettes and one match.

[Hanley!]

God, I am so sick of having people on this board that disect someone's post and badger the person just because they have to have the upper hand.

It's stupid teenager bullshit. I quoted one part of Hanley saying he felt that just putting 3 blacks in a group together was racist because I don't think it is, the examples I gave were all in context to that one sentence. I understand Roman is not white but his Samoan heritage was not addressed or integrated into his character. What I was getting at is just because a group is compiled as (or portrayed as) all being the same race does not make it racist.

The amount of people that feel the need to jump on the race bandwagon as an excuse or answer to why they don't like something is sickening. I'm fucking sick of it, you can not have a legit debate on this board about anything involving race, and God forbid you should be pro American on a stance cause you will get steamrolled.

Sorry for the venting rant but I am just fed up with it, I enjoy visiting this place to kill time and to view/communicate opinions with others but the way people handle communication about race issues is asinine and the level of anti-American gloating is absurd.

Or maybe the reason you can't have a legit debate on this board is because someone will get ridiculously defensive and start lashing out for no reason. All I was trying to do was debate. Apparently just the act of debating is offensive to you. I wasn't trying to say anything offensive and I don't think I did. To go on a swear ridden tirade for no reason and then go off on others for "stupid teenager bullshit" is more than a little hypocritical.

And yes, there are people here who take racism pretty seriously and there are people who take an anti-American stance on some issues. So what? There are two good ways to deal with this: you can argue the other side of the debate or you can avoid these conversations completely. Both are preferable to being passive aggressive and bitchy or deliberately insulting someone who's just trying to have some harmless fun.

[Hanley!]

I think it's quite suspect. Just because you're black and you don't get offended by it doesn't make it okay.

That's an excuse that comes up a lot in wrestling, and I don't think it holds as much weight as some people seem to think. Fans are often happy to have some justification for what WWE is doing, because it's a company that they're attached to and they want to think well of them. But it doesn't always hold up.

There are lots of examples of WWE getting negative press over how they dealt with various deaths on screen. And their retort is usually that the dead wrestler would have approved of it. Even if that's true, that doesn't necessarily make it less offensive to those watching. One of the more recent ones was when Punk & Heyman were making fun of Lawler's heart attack on screen. Lawler signed off on it, sure. But lots of people at home or in the audience might have recently lost loved-ones to heart attacks and they could still be effected by it.

The issue I have is that when compared to white wrestlers there's very few none white wrestlers that don't have this basic one dimensional gimmick slapped on them. Be it, Mexican Gardeners, Big Foreign Brute, Black Gospel Preacher the list goes on and on throughout history.

It's weird seeing people act like racism in professional wrestling isn't a well documented thing.

it's shitty when the only brown guy I might see on the main stage is either a giant foreign brute or a terrorist, not just a normal guy with normal pro wres aspirations and normal pro wres attire. Nope he has to be from the deepest darkest jungle in India or have a translator spitting stuff out in Farsi.

All of this. When all of the black characters are defined by racial stereotypes (even ones that aren't strictly negative), but white characters aren't defined by race in the same way, then there's clearly a racial bias there. When they're coming up with gimmicks for white people, they don't limit themselves, but for foreigners they almost always make it about race somehow.

I'm a white guy, so it's likely not as offensive to me as some people from these actual groups, but I still think it's just a bit shitty and that their writers should be a bit more progressive by now.

[Westcoastvibes]

God, I am so sick of having people on this board that disect someone's post and badger the person just because they have to have the upper hand.

It's stupid teenager bullshit. I quoted one part of Hanley saying he felt that just putting 3 blacks in a group together was racist because I don't think it is, the examples I gave were all in context to that one sentence. I understand Roman is not white but his Samoan heritage was not addressed or integrated into his character. What I was getting at is just because a group is compiled as (or portrayed as) all being the same race does not make it racist.

The amount of people that feel the need to jump on the race bandwagon as an excuse or answer to why they don't like something is sickening. I'm fucking sick of it, you can not have a legit debate on this board about anything involving race, and God forbid you should be pro American on a stance cause you will get steamrolled.

Sorry for the venting rant but I am just fed up with it, I enjoy visiting this place to kill time and to view/communicate opinions with others but the way people handle communication about race issues is asinine and the level of anti-American gloating is absurd.

Or maybe the reason you can't have a legit debate on this board is because someone will get ridiculously defensive and start lashing out for no reason. All I was trying to do was debate. Apparently just the act of debating is offensive to you. I wasn't trying to say anything offensive and I don't think I did. To go on a swear ridden tirade for no reason and then go off on others for "stupid teenager bullshit" is more than a little hypocritical.

And yes, there are people here who take racism pretty seriously and there are people who take an anti-American stance on some issues. So what? There are two good ways to deal with this: you can argue the other side of the debate or you can avoid these conversations completely. Both are preferable to being passive aggressive and bitchy or deliberately insulting someone who's just trying to have some harmless fun.

Hanley, I am sorry if you felt like I directed that towards you personally, your post was just the tipping point for something I have noticed going on for a while now. You are always professional in your responses and I thank you for that. Others on here tend to not be so respectful when posting a rebuttal and I have only seen maybe 3 people admit when they were wrong or if there views on a subject was changed because of a debate. It seems like everyone is so hard headed that they will argue their point to the grave without care for what they say.

As for the anti-American shit, that really bothers me, it's not people disagreeing with something that America does its people name calling, slandering, and just plain talking shit about American people as a whole basses on what a few do. If something remotely bad happens in America people on this board are salivating at the chance to come on here and voice how America is full of nothing but gun wielding in breed rednecks that are ruining the world. We Americans don't come on here and talk shit about EU, Canada or any other country and I thinks some mutual respect should be used.

[Messiah]

I think it's quite suspect. Just because you're black and you don't get offended by it doesn't make it okay.

That's an excuse that comes up a lot in wrestling, and I don't think it holds as much weight as some people seem to think. Fans are often happy to have some justification for what WWE is doing, because it's a company that they're attached to and they want to think well of them. But it doesn't always hold up.

Oh come on, Hanley. You've seen me post long enough on this site to know this is not the case.

Yeah, the gimmick is probably based off a stereotype. I've admitted as much. But to say it is racist? I think people tend to throw around that word a tad too much. There is a gigantic difference between stereotyping and racism. We all stereotype in our own way. We stereotype ourselves. Stereotyping in some cases is not a bad thing. A sign of a lazy creative team? Absolutely. But there is nothing racist about what they do at all nor is it offensive. Not a single black person is going to take offense to a group of black people singing gospel. It is not a negative stereotype. It is nothing like them giving an Hispanic wrestler a lowrider bicycle with a fence (who the hell approved that) in their titantron. That is a negative stereotype and it is offensive.



I'm not seeing the racism at all. I'm not seeing what anybody is supposed to be offended by. I think some of you are just looking for something that isn't there.

[Messiah]

I guess my main issue is that I don't get how anybody can call this racist.

I agree that the creative team takes lazy shortcuts when coming up with gimmicks for foreigners and minorities. But this right here... it isn't racist. Not at all.

[Hanley!]

Oh come on, Hanley. You've seen me post long enough on this site to know this is not the case.

I wasn't aiming the comment at you, it was just a general observation. If that's not the reason, then I don't know why there are so many people who jump to WWE's defense in these matters, because it doesn't take much to see what a bad track record they have.

You've been outspoken about other offensive things they've done, but you don't find this gimmick offensive. And that's fair enough. I don't really find it all that offensive either. But I do find it insulting. And to me it does speak to a racist attitude. I think basing all black character's gimmicks on a stereotype is in itself a racist process. It basically implies that white people are the default and that they are complete people, whereas others are defined solely by their race.

People might not find a gospel singer gimmick as offensive as a voodoo priest or a gangster or a pimp or thugs or someone who goes around eating fried chicken all the time. But it's still a symptom of the same disease. Just a lesser symptom.

[SlightlyJames]

Oh come on, Hanley. You've seen me post long enough on this site to know this is not the case.

I wasn't aiming the comment at you, it was just a general observation. If that's not the reason, then I don't know why there are so many people who jump to WWE's defense in these matters, because it doesn't take much to see what a bad track record they have.

I think there's also a distinction to be made between defending WWE and genuinely not seeing anything offensive in what's happening. Nobody's really denying that WWE has a habit of stereotyping their minority and foreign talents and it's very possible that's where this gimmick came from but despite that fact it's generally harmless.

[The Legend]

I would say it is important to note that there is a difference between a stereotype and actual racism. The WWE and Pro Wrestling are filled with all kinds of stereotypes because those characters help you easily and quickly identify characters and shape how you respond to them. It's always been true, and it doesn't just apply to race.

From the Repo Man to the crooked IRS agent Irwin R Shyster to today with a backwoods "Duck Dynasty" religous nut cult leader in Bray Wyatt to a "Millenial" party animal like Adam Rose the WWE uses these stereotypical characters because they play into trends and realities in our world that make people want to either love or hate them one way or another.

Those characters illicit an immediate attention grabbing response from the audience which is exactly what the WWE is after. They want to take the route to the quickest reaction so they know where the character stands.

Jinder Mahal never worked because it was a ridiculously silly and unrealistic character that no one had seen before and therfore didn't know where to put him in their mind.

This is nothing new for wrestling and it stuns me the amount of people that get angered by things like this that have followed and been a fan of wrestling for years upon years. That's the heart of what wrestling is as entertainment and where they draw their lifeblood from.

[ShaneOfan]

Chavo Guerrero changed his name and pretended he wasn't latino anymore and had a golf caddy as his manager

Dolphin Ziggler

[Daz]

As for the anti-American shit, that really bothers me, it's not people disagreeing with something that America does its people name calling, slandering, and just plain talking shit about American people as a whole basses on what a few do. If something remotely bad happens in America people on this board are salivating at the chance to come on here and voice how America is full of nothing but gun wielding in breed rednecks that are ruining the world. We Americans don't come on here and talk shit about EU, Canada or any other country and I thinks some mutual respect should be used.

I politely disagree with that assessment. I don't think it's remotely true that anyone on this board is abjectly anti-American, and the few anti-American arguments that have occurred on this forum, mainly relating to gun control (most of which I've been involved in because I do have a strong opinion on the subject) aren't based on a dislike for America, or a preconceived notion that you're all "gun wielding inbred rednecks that are ruining the world" I'm certainly not salivating at the opportunity to perpetuate that myth either. It simply comes from a frustration that again people have needlessly lost their life, and I would have those same arguments had the situation been reversed and it were my own country we were talking about.

As you yourself said, we have a lot of strong-headed people, myself being one of them, who very rarely concede a point or be willing to accept the other side of the argument. In the anti-American case, I think you need to hold your hands up and realize you don't live in a perfect country (which I'm sure you already know) and accept that sometimes people aren't gonna agree with news stories that come out of it. Don't take it so to heart because when I say I don't agree with your gun laws etc. I'm not attacking you the person. It doesn't reflect on you, it doesn't reflect on the American people as a whole ... if anything most of the so called anti-American views on this board are attacking your laws and constitution, more so than the people themselves. And I find those on this board that have fallen on the same side of the fence as me in these arguments, tend to be more politically inclined to begin with and have also expressed negative opinions on our own governments as well. So again, it doesn't come from an anti-American stance at all.

And just because you haven't personally, doesn't mean there hasn't been some mud slinging towards the UK. A certain departed member made a nasty habit of it, and even made sure to note it in his parting shot. So it does go both ways, and if you're gonna throw out these broad generalizations, you should at least acknowledge that.

That being said, this probably wasn't necessary to bring up in this particularity thread, but because I am strong-headed and I do like a good debate, I had to throw my opinion in the ring lol.

[Hanley!]

I would say it is important to note that there is a difference between a stereotype and actual racism. The WWE and Pro Wrestling are filled with all kinds of stereotypes because those characters help you easily and quickly identify characters and shape how you respond to them. It's always been true, and it doesn't just apply to race.

From the Repo Man to the crooked IRS agent Irwin R Shyster to today with a backwoods "Duck Dynasty" religous nut cult leader in Bray Wyatt to a "Millenial" party animal like Adam Rose the WWE uses these stereotypical characters because they play into trends and realities in our world that make people want to either love or hate them one way or another.

Those characters illicit an immediate attention grabbing response from the audience which is exactly what the WWE is after. They want to take the route to the quickest reaction so they know where the character stands.

Jinder Mahal never worked because it was a ridiculously silly and unrealistic character that no one had seen before and therfore didn't know where to put him in their mind.

This is nothing new for wrestling and it stuns me the amount of people that get angered by things like this that have followed and been a fan of wrestling for years upon years. That's the heart of what wrestling is as entertainment and where they draw their lifeblood from.

I don't think it should stun you that people get angered by this stuff now. The public have come a long way when it comes to accepting racist depictions in media. The stuff that wrestling used to be able to get away with, it shouldn't be able to get away with any more. We're progressing as a society and wrestling should be trying to keep up.

And I think you're almost proving my point when dropping names like IRS, Wyatt, Repo Man and Adam Rose. I see what you're getting at - that WWE likes to use stereotypes when devising their characters. They like to draw their characters in broad strokes. I understand what you mean. But none of the characters you mentioned are defined by their race. Those characters could really be of any ethnicity. Whereas far too often the gimmicks of their non-white characters are based entirely around their ethnicity. Which isn't a process that we should be celebrating.

Also funnily enough the characters you mentioned weren't/aren't all that successful either. There are exceptions to the rule (most notably Undertaker), but WWE's biggest stars usually aren't such sweeping characterisations.

I don't think there's anything weird about complaining about this. Asking for some better drawn non-white characters isn't really asking for that much.

[prophet]

I don't think the gimmick is racist at all, it's obviously playing up to a stereotype but that rings true for a lot of gimmicks these days and the three men involved are obviously fine with it so I don't have an issue with it. What I do think was probably inadvertently racist was putting Big E, Kofi and Woods together as a group in the first place.

They're all talented performers and meshing their speed, smarts and strength styles together will probably work really well as a group and compliment each other nicely, of that I've no doubt. Do I think that's what the WWE had in mind when they put the group together? Not a chance. The WWE way of thinking as it relates to ethnic minorities has always been 'lump them together and find a suitable stereotype for them to work with'. Obviously we'll never know whether that's the case but I'm willing to say it is. Some examples have already been given but even when they randomly put two singles guys together to make a makeshift team they usually put the two black guys together and I don't really think that can be argued tbh.

So yeah I don't think the gimmick is racist but I'm pretty sure the idea of putting them together was because they all share the same race which again isn't flat-out racist but I do think race was the main factor in why these three are now a group. At the end of the day though who cares? I hope the New Day is a success because as I said earlier the group dynamic should compliment each other nicely. Shit name for the group, though.

[The Legend]

I would say it is important to note that there is a difference between a stereotype and actual racism. The WWE and Pro Wrestling are filled with all kinds of stereotypes because those characters help you easily and quickly identify characters and shape how you respond to them. It's always been true, and it doesn't just apply to race.

From the Repo Man to the crooked IRS agent Irwin R Shyster to today with a backwoods "Duck Dynasty" religous nut cult leader in Bray Wyatt to a "Millenial" party animal like Adam Rose the WWE uses these stereotypical characters because they play into trends and realities in our world that make people want to either love or hate them one way or another.

Those characters illicit an immediate attention grabbing response from the audience which is exactly what the WWE is after. They want to take the route to the quickest reaction so they know where the character stands.

Jinder Mahal never worked because it was a ridiculously silly and unrealistic character that no one had seen before and therfore didn't know where to put him in their mind.

This is nothing new for wrestling and it stuns me the amount of people that get angered by things like this that have followed and been a fan of wrestling for years upon years. That's the heart of what wrestling is as entertainment and where they draw their lifeblood from.

I don't think it should stun you that people get angered by this stuff now. The public have come a long way when it comes to accepting racist depictions in media. The stuff that wrestling used to be able to get away with, it shouldn't be able to get away with any more. We're progressing as a society and wrestling should be trying to keep up.

And I think you're almost proving my point when dropping names like IRS, Wyatt, Repo Man and Adam Rose. I see what you're getting at - that WWE likes to use stereotypes when devising their characters. They like to draw their characters in broad strokes. I understand what you mean. But none of the characters you mentioned are defined by their race. Those characters could really be of any ethnicity. Whereas far too often the gimmicks of their non-white characters are based entirely around their ethnicity. Which isn't a process that we should be celebrating.

Also funnily enough the characters you mentioned weren't/aren't all that successful either. There are exceptions to the rule (most notably Undertaker), but WWE's biggest stars usually aren't such sweeping characterisations.

I don't think there's anything weird about complaining about this. Asking for some better drawn non-white characters isn't really asking for that much.

I think what's weird is that you are asking a form of entertainment that you've been a fan of for decades to become something it never has been - at least in WWE - that's what's strange to me.

[Hanley!]

But that's completely untrue. Maybe there's always been these stereotypical gimmicks in wrestling, but there's been countless more successful gimmicks that haven't fallen into that category. There has always been more nuanced characters that were more entertaining not just to me but to the majority. Saying that wrestling has always been about pigeonholing people is untrue.

And what's wrong with wanting something to improve? Is there anything wrong with having higher standards about your entertainment? I never understand that kind of attitude. In every aspect of our lives, our entertainment, our art, etc, we should always be trying to improve.

That's separate to my original point anyway though. I wasn't complaining about stereotyping in wrestling originally. I was complaining about the different stereotypes assigned to white wrestlers and non-white wrestlers. White wrestlers may be given personas that are nothing but generic stereotypes, but there are no restrictions on the kind of stereotype that may be assigned to them. Whereas with non-white performers, the stereotype is always married to their race. In this way the non-white performers aren't being given the same opportunities as the white performers.

How big of a problem that is may be up for debate, but I don't think it can be argued that it's not racist at least on some level. So I don't think it's out of line to say that they should be working to fix this.

[DanielsonTHAGOAT]

I don't think the gimmick is racist at all. What I do have a problem with is the generic baby face gimmick they gave to all three wrestlers. I thought this group was supposed elevate Kofi, Xavier, and Big E but it just seems like they're a clone of the Usos.

I know Xavier is great on the mic and Kofi is long overdue for some kind of a push. Big E has a lot of personality outside of the wrestling ring but I don't think he has ever had the chance to showcase it inside the ring.

We'll see how this stable holds up though.

[Hanley!]

In terms of how the stable is actually going to do long term, I think we'll have to wait until they're on Raw to get a good idea. It's a little odd that they debuted here on Smackdown to little fanfare, and I imagine that it's just that they were testing the waters with the team to see how fans reacted. There wasn't much to them in that appearance, I imagine they'll elaborate on Raw.

[SortaCreative]

to become something it never has been - at least in WWE - that's what's strange to me.

To improve? It's confusing you that a fan wants the product to improve?

Look this particular gimmick might not be the most overtly racist gimmick they've ever done. But it still adds to the tally of overly simple, ethnically defined gimmicks for people of a different colour. That's the point. Why can't Kofi, Xavier and Big E be three individuals, with goals, personality and character from the off set rather than being introduced as black gospel singers?

From the Repo Man to the crooked IRS agent Irwin R Shyster to today with a backwoods "Duck Dynasty" religous nut cult leader in Bray Wyatt to a "Millenial" party animal like Adam Rose the WWE uses these stereotypical characters because they play into trends and realities in our world that make people want to either love or hate them one way or another.

None of those gimmicks are tied to the colour of their skin. IRS could have been black, Repo Man and Adam Rose too. Bray Wyatt is a perfect example of New Day in reverse. Where as he could have been booked as a bible belt, deep south, unhinged "Duck Dynasty" cult leader, they really tried to get over a character (as good or as bad as it is). He's not defined by his colour. He's not just the dumb white trailer park trash he could have been booked as. He's a sinister, mind fucking mental person.

Jinder Mahal never worked because it was a ridiculously silly and unrealistic character that no one had seen before and therfore didn't know where to put him in their mind.

Jinder Mahal, when he debuted, was almost true to life. He wore a turban representing his culture and spoke Punjabi/Hindi (because, you know, to get them boos). He had no racially charged gimmick like a "tea maker" or "taxi driver" or "corner shop owner" and it didn't work. He is the most realistic brown person to debut in the WWE and it's unrealistic and ridiculously silly?

[The Legend]

^^^ I was referring to Jinder Mahal's 3MB days. That was a horribly miscast character to me. No it's not strange for a fan to want a product to improve, but for it to be something different than it ever was and realistically ever will be is strange. Listen the WWE has a certain way of doing things. They run their company their way. Either you are into that technique or you aren't no harm no foul.